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Interviews with future real estate millionaires: Dario Silvestri, Ontario, multi-unit investor.

Note from My Smart Real Estate: With this post, we are starting a new category on our blog where we want to interview emerging real estate investors, the "future real estate millionaires" as we want to call them.

The goal behind these interviews is to learn the thinking that brought them to real estate investing, learn any tips and tricks they use, understand the types of investments they engage in. There is plenty of information about the real estate moguls who now operate billions of dollars. However, reading into how they operate does not provide too much insight for a person currently working a "9-to-5" job. We want to reach out to people who are still in the middle of their path to the billions of dollars. We hope that these interviews will open the door into the world of this sometimes closed group of people who quit their "9-to-5" to enjoy the thrill of investing in real estate. We also hope that upon reading these interviews, we will show how it is done and empower some of our readers to make the first step towards their real estate investor career.

In the below interview with Dario Silvestri, we discussed what brought him to real estate investing, his path to growing his investments, and the projects that he is engaged in at the moment. We also discussed the future of the real estate market in Canada, the markets that Dario expects will grow the most. We also discussed his future plans, the strategy, the approach to real estate investing. Dario also provided a few tips on how to start investing today.

Interviews with future real estate millionaires.

Dario Silvestri

Multi-unit investor

Ontario, Canada

Founder of f7 Holdings

Real estate investment portfolio: $1.89 million; adding $2.5 million multi-unit in the near future

My Smart Real Estate: Can you please talk about how you started in real estate investment?

Dario: I started as a contractor and I knew I wasn't committed to a contractor business. I would get enough for my 21-22-23-year old lifestyle. So I wanted a bit of money in my pocket, a little bit of travel time, and then just have a couple of bucks in my pocket. And you know, when you do that 6-7-8-9 years in a row, you start to realize that every time I've needed to reach into the world for some money, that's the avenue that's been available for me.

So for me, it was a simple kind of transition. COVID really gave me that extra kick into the 100% real estate investor space. Up until before COVID, I was still building, managing renovations, and doing these kinds of jobs. COVID really was an eye-opener, a slap in the face, whichever one you prefer. You want to make it, but you realize that that you are still dependent on other people, markets, what's going on. I wanted a little bit more control of that. So it was a perfect time because many things dried up, and everything kind of came to a standstill across the world. So that opportunity for me to quickly pivot into what I'm going to do as a real estate investor. So now I can approach it. This background experience that I had made it an easier step for me because now I have opportunities to look at a fix and flip. I have a pretty good experience behind me. Analyze the deal. See what it needs, how much it's going to cost? What potential is there? I mean, all of this background that I've learned, it's kind of helped. It's definitely been a bonus for me. Not necessarily that it is a necessity. That's the things it just it's a bonus that I have, you know. Things are constantly changing that dynamic world. I mean, if you'd asked me to price a job last year, or a year and a half ago, it's completely different than it is. Because I had that experience doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to win. So I don't want people to think that you need that to get into that space. It is, of course, a benefit. But unless you're willing to pivot and continue growing with the industry itself, you will get left behind.

First house Dario built when he was 18 years old.

How would you describe you style of your investment? What exactly do you do right now?

Right now, we're focusing on buying larger multi-units. We started, I started a new company with 2 holdings, with a couple of other investors that I've teamed up with. And again, we started from scratch. I had a duplex, used that to leverage into a fourplex, use that to leverage into a 12-unit boarding house. Now we've got a little portfolio with five properties in it, and we're looking to move into a bigger space. So, this is my personal and my team's philosophy. We're constantly looking at the bigger cost, the next purchase always has to be bigger. And we keep that as our goal because it pushes you. I don't want to get comfortable. It sounds weird. But really soon as you get comfortable, you stop, you lose your edge. And you're not going to progress. Again, that's like having a job for me. So, if I just wanted to keep doing the same process over and over and over and over again, I probably would do well. It just would be a higher-paid job essentially. Let's put the bar very high. And that's where we're going. So, like I said with us right now, we're not looking to the fix and flip space. I'm not a wholesaler. There’re some very good operators in those kinds of markets. Me, I'm looking at the way the economy is and what's happening to the world. And I'm looking to acquire and grow a portfolio that way.

The duplex that starting Dario's investment journey.

So you buy places that already exist. You don't build something from scratch?

No, not right now. I mean, that could change. I'm not gonna lie. It's just the way that the markets have been. And just the whole industry has been lately like that with supply problems, shortage of quality tradespeople. All of these kinds of issues right now have made me lean away from the building space, new developments right now. We're looking at people shifting real assembling. So there's a lot of opportunities out there. The way the markets had jumped right through the roof. I'm also a licensed Realtor as well. I can play on both sides of the fence. And what I've noticed, especially now, is with such a hot market in such a push, people didn't need realtors. People just put the property on the market, and they were being overbid, you know, competitively overbid. Right now is a great time just to get out there and find people that are looking to dispose of the property. And that's what our aim has been for. I want to say at least the last 12 months.

Yeah, I definitely saw a surge in prices, especially in GTA, and overall Ontario has been growing. Are you primarily working in Ontario? Or across Canada? It doesn't stop you. Right?

No, I will not stop us right now. I will say our portfolio is concentrated in Ontario. This is our home right now. So, it's not like you need to go across the country to find deals. They exist everywhere. I'm in Thunder Bay, my partner is in Mississauga, Scarborough, and Cambridge. So, we've spread ourselves around Ontario. But again, if you're looking at the markets and how we're strategizing our forward moves, Alberta is a very attractive place right now because of the cycle the market they're in.

So, do you think the market in Alberta going to grow? It's interesting because not sure where the oil industry is with how the Canadian government has been trying to shut down the oil industry.

You got to be able to filter through some of that noise. I mean, make no mistake about it. I'm all for green energy. All this thinking is the way that we need to go. But I'm not going to fool myself and say that's going to happen tomorrow. Right? You understand for that complete shift over, even auto companies are talking 2035 before they're actually going to make the full transition. So, we got a good decade - a decade and a half of solid returns. And if you're looking at any kind of long-term investment or real estate, typically five to seven years, that gives me two cycles to play, to play the real estate market inflation, and what's gonna happen to the markets. Alberta, like you said, is a special case if you look across Canada, and particularly, Alberta is the one province that didn't get hit with the big push in real estate prices. They almost maintained a flat kind of growth over the last few months. That in itself cannot be sustained when the rest of the country is being lifted up so fast. It eventually has to grow. It's just a natural thing. It's like the one hole all the water will leak through it. Once it's all there. It's going to float it up. Once enough people start saying, well, Alberta is the cheapest, it will no longer be the cheapest because everybody will be buying in Alberta. Right? So it's a lot to do with market timing as well.

I do notice that people right now move more due to COVID. And people can now start working from home. Many people choose to sell here in Ontario and move to Saskatchewan to buy a nice house for $190K.

It's funny because the majority of Ontario lives in the GTA and the Golden Horseshoe area. A lot of times, investors forget that. That's just a very small part of the actual province. The province is quite large. And there's a lot of smaller communities in the northern regions like Thunder Bay. But for me, like I just noticed what's happening. And you know, you get the first tier just outside of the GTA. You've seen market pushes; now we're seeing in the second and third waves for Thunder, Thunder Bay, for example. It takes two or three months before we see that push in prices and markets after the GTA starts. So you know, it kind of comes in waves. So we got a reaction time in that regard. So listen, try to find something down in the GTA; you're not going to find it now. Trying to get into Sudbury and those kinds of areas is still going to get harder to find as just not too much left. Thunder Bay has no inventory as well. The prices are up 17% year over year, right. This is why people are coming to northern Ontario. Because they want to get away. You know, if I'm gonna be on my computer all day long, why do I got to be in an office? I might as well sit next to the lake.

So are you thinking that GTA business core, Toronto will be flat for the next many years?

No, not at all. Right now is a difficult time to get in because it's like news media. All of this has really pushed attention into these kinds of markets right now. So you get players that I mean, you get the bigger players that have always been in the markets. But now we're getting even retail investors that are coming to us, the new guys, people that never thought of it before. Still, they had no other options, and now they're stepping into this space. So it really is putting a lot of competition and pressure in that market. I think that this will ease. You won't have such a big crowd of people there. But Toronto represents Canada anywhere around the world. I have lived in other countries around the world. Toronto was the most well-known place, and it is the economic hub of Canada. That's where everything happens. So I never see Toronto doing any kind of big pullback. It might not grow as quickly, but it will continue to grow.

Earlier, you said that you work in kind of cycles. So do you tend to buy and hold for, like, a few years? And then you push yourself to sell it and buy something bigger all the time? Or do you keep some properties for a long time?

Well, absolutely. Whatever I buy, when I personally now look into a property, my vision is five to seven years. Okay, that's a cycle I have. I look at three years as a refinancing point. And like I said, it's just using market appreciation. Over the last year, we've seen 20 to 30% increases in the market. Now, if I'm looking three years out, and expect not quite that, but you know, a constant 4% to 5%. Year over year, in three years from now, even though I'm not looking to sell the property, it could be a good time to refinance, take advantage of some of that inflationary pressure on the prices of real estate, pull out some of the equity and invest it into another property. So it's kind of overlapping cycles with different properties. So the first one's going to go for five years. But at the three-year point, I used that one to purchase another one that will go five years from that point on a steady flow continuously.

Maybe you can help me. I tried to also calculate my own returns if I would buy, let's say, not a multiunit, but a house and rent out, upper part, bottom part. But I always get very low ROI. What ROI are you targeting, usually?

Okay, first of all, I try not to do those kinds of restrictions. I mean, really, at the end of the day, I'd like to see 10 and 12% ROI on my money. So that means some will hit at 30%, and some will hit 5%. We're going to balance out somewhere in the middle. But it's not quite. That's the determining factor. Because again, a lot of stuff is really speculation. For me to say that this property will be worth this amount of money in five years because I expect 4% inflation. This is really speculation, it's an educated guess. Essentially, we don't know what will happen next year or two years down the road that could affect the markets' prices. When I buy a property for five to seven years, I'm looking okay, this is gonna give me an 18% annualized return over the five years, and that's including the sell-in equity on the back end, which sounds very nice. But again, anywhere along those years, something bad or very good can happen and actually increase my returns or decrease the return. So like I said, I don't let that absolutely cement my decision-making. I want something that will cash flow. If I can purchase a building with the financing, and whatever the rents are, I can cover that keep that on the plus side. And I'm not talking 1000s of dollars or, you know, 20 and 30% return. You can own it without having to continually add capital to the investment in five years, and you're gonna make money on it.

You'll find it more challenging when you're looking at single-family properties and duplexes. There are only two units. Yes. And so that's why my vision is always higher. It takes just as much work to find and close on a duplex, triplex, or fourplex as it does to find 16 or 20 units. And you'll be surprised that it is actually easier to raise capital on something that is 16 and 20 units than a duplex. The money's flowing better to the large units because you got 16 units or 20 units; that's going to help spread the costs essentially. So if one unit is empty, it's not detrimental to the business. If you're running a duplex, one empty unit is 50% of your gross revenues that is gone. That's how I kind of look at things.

I did notice that you're getting on the Facebook groups to get some investors to join you. And how do you manage that? Is it difficult to do if I would like to join you tomorrow? How much cash to invest? What are my risks? And what are my benefits?

That's a great question. How do I explain? It's important that you understand what's happening to the money, like your money; everybody wants to know where their money is. So, in this imaginary deal backed by equity dollars in the real estate, it's not putting the money in the air. So, if you came up with $100,000, I'd say: "Okay, this property here, this $100,000 is assigned to you. We're not going to really leverage that or borrow more money against that; that's your equity. I can't take more money on it. So that's essentially how it works. So instead of me trying to come up with $2 million to buy a building, I find 20 people. We get $100K each, and we all buy a building, and we all own it equally. It doesn't make a difference, a 20% return on a million or $100,000. It still works out the same. It's 20% of the dollar you put down there. So how much do you want to put in - that determines what amount you are getting back.

A lot of people just don't know the whole game. So like I said, I want you to be confident that, okay, if you got $100,000, I'm gonna back it with equity. And our position is that we don't take a greater position than any of our investors. We actually have a 10% hold of the whole portfolio. The rest of it belongs to the investors. What we provide is: we're going to make sure it's managed correctly. The only way that we can actually do better for ourselves is by doing better for the investors. So if we can refine costs, reduce costs, improve processes, reduce vacancies, these kinds of things help with our pro forma numbers, give us the best numbers. Now we get the best numbers; I get the best numbers for my investors. And my investors understand that. The better I can do for them, the better reward I get because it's a motivation, both ways to win-win. If I do better, I can get a little bit more money. But so are you. That's the important thing. It's not that I want to make more money at the expense of my investors. That's not a good game. I will lose investors. I will lose partners. And that's more important than the actual dollar.

So from how I understand it. Let's say 20 people come together, and it is a 16 unit. So there are 16 renters, hopefully. Sometimes it's going to be fewer people if some people move out, and churn is pretty quick. And each person gets a share of the monthly income or monthly cash flow. And then how do you decide on the sale of the property. Is it decided by the majority? Or is there a set time to sell that is decided upfront?

You want to set those rules out, not rules, but the part of your strategy is at the beginning. When I have a five-year deal, at three years, we are going to hit the refinancing position. And all my investors, we're going to look at where it's valued at. Now we have an option we can refinance it because, as I said, the investors are 90% owners. Any extra we get that goes as either a cash payout to the investors or is reinvested. We decide as a team. Everybody votes. It's a choice. It's not like Dario is going to tell you what to do. As I said, it's a joint venture. We give certain people control because too many cooks spoil the broth, right? So you know, our team runs the thing, and it's our job, it's our job to make sure it's running as best as possible. And again, if we don't do it, we don't make any money either. So it's important to make more money for our investors because it actually helps increase our returns.

Right now, you're buying the multi-units. But way back when you just started, did you start with buying individual houses or apartments?

I started right from scratch. I built my first duplex with my own hands. I got that up and running, got it rented, exacted equity, and leveraged that one to buy a fourplex. I had a nice duplex that allowed me to bring in a partner. And we said together: "You know what? We want more." So we got a fourplex. Once we had the fourplex, it allowed us to bring in more partners. And then we bought a 12-room boarding house and another single-family home. So now the team of four, we're looking to add more people to our team and go up into 16 and 20 units. The 16-unit we have on contract right now. And we have another 11-unit coming up in the new year. And we're looking into another 12-unit right now in Belleville. So like I said, it's not just me leveraging the money and grouping the money. It's grouping the team as well. Get more people involved. By myself, I can buy another $250,000 home or a $500,000 home. But with 10 people, we're looking at a $5 million property. So like I said, mathematics is simple. It's still the same, you know. It doesn't make a difference in your returns. Returns depend on what your input is. So how many people do we bring in? I like bigger because bigger becomes more diversified. Like I said, if I had a four-plex and one unit is empty, that's a 25% loss of revenue. If I have 20 units, one's empty, you know, we've reduced it down to 5%. We have 200 units, and two or three are empty. It's a very small percentage of our total income. And we can actually cover these. So instead of one investor carrying the one vacancy, now we have investors splitting one vacancy. It's a lot less pressure on any kind of record.

The next investment target by Dario and his team

So let's say, I want to partner with you, but I have no cash? Can I start investing with let's say, HELOC or my available mortgage?

This is what the play is on with the HELOC right now. If you're getting a good rate, which the banks have right now, you should be lending that out. Yeah, I mean, that's the space you should be looking to get into the first position. Second position mortgages: it depends on your risk tolerance. And then that's what it comes down to. If you have a HELOC, you're paying 2 or 3% on it. You can easily get the first position in a very secure 75% loan to value. Right now, I put you on a mortgage on one of my properties. Like I said, if you have a bigger appetite for risk and you'd like bigger returns, they go hand in hand. It's a weird concept, but HELOC and mortgage are your assets right now. If you can understand what that means, because the money is so cheap, right now, you're better off to let good debt, not credit cards.

Locking in at these rates, you can borrow with a 100% or even 120% leverage. That is as high as you can get leveraged. It's a good idea because nobody is anticipating these rates to stay much longer. Canada already made some mention of getting ahead of the Fed and raising the rates. So we're talking about six to 12 months from now to start seeing them creeping up. If you're locked in at 2% on a five-year deal, it doesn't matter. In five years from now, you're still paying that 2% while everybody else is paying 8% or 6%, or wherever it gets up to. So not only are you saving money on that, but that actual debt, you can sell your debt for a profit. Because if you're only paying 2% and the markets are at 8%, somebody will buy your debt you for 5%. For example, you know, they'll give you money so that they can take your debt at 5% and still push it out at eight. I know it's a weird kind of concept, right? I'm buying and selling a debt because it's cheaper for me to buy a 5% debt off you even though you're making 3% on that, then I need to pay 8%, which is 3% more, right? So you can make money on holding a debt. And that's not even your money.

That is a very interesting concept. I understand with HELOC, you borrow money at 2.5%, and then you invest it somewhere around 10%. So by the end of the year, you made like 7.5% of your money. And you actually don't even have to invest the money. You just borrow money, invest it and make money on something you never own.

Think about it. It sounds evil, almost. But that's the reality if you look at the big, big dollars, where I'm not yet, but I will be getting to. That's the goal. That's what they're doing right now. If you think about it, some larger investment companies get the prime rates from the banks and the Fed. Right? And what are they doing with that? They're not buying cars, and they're really borrowing it back out. Exactly what the banks are doing, the way the markets are right now, everybody trying to get in. If there's money out there, people will take rates as high as 24%. People will pay for the money because they know that even at that crazy high-interest rate, the way the real estate markets themselves are going, it will actually account for or make up for those kinds of costs. After all, the markets will give you those returns. For the portfolio I put together over five years, I'm estimating to come out at a 26.4% annualized return. So every year 26.4%. If we include the sale at the back end, right now, if you're borrowing money at 24%, that's crazy expensive. But I still made 2% every year, over five years. Now, if the portfolio was $5 million, 2% becomes significant. Right? You know, I mean, $50,000 a year, or $100,000 a year, for five years. That's okay; I can live on that. Because my job was paying me 40,000. So even though I'm paying a higher interest rate because I'm allowed to, the investment itself will pay me more than that cost because of how the markets are. Of course, we would not want to carry a 24% mortgage line of credit anywhere other than for acquisition, but like I said, the money is out there right now. Big money needs to get out of the banks. Nobody wants to keep their money in the banks right now.

It's kind of what they taught everybody down below that upper class: pay off your mortgage, save your money, these kinds of philosophies with money and finance. Even though the people who are making money, live by an opposite set of rules. It's not "put all your money in the bank." It's not "pay off your mortgage." It's "how can you increase your mortgages? How can you get more money borrowed at cheaper rates? How can I get it? How can I get it out into the markets?" Because it's not going to do anything for you sitting at home? I talk to people, and some people say: "I got a letter credit for $150,000". I ask: "And how much have you used?" - "Nothing." It's all available, you don't use it, and you're losing money. So yeah, you're not paying to them [lenders]. But they're providing you an opportunity to make money, and you're not taking advantage of it.

So, when you take partners, let's say I don't have equity right now, I don't own a home. And I cannot get a HELOC. But I know I can borrow $300,000 in a mortgage. Can I invest that?

Yeah, you can take a seat as a mortgage holder. It all works the same, that we become a team, right. And there are different components. There's the actual cash investment that's needed. There's the mortgage that needs to be. And to be honest, let' say I can go out and get a mortgage at 5%, and I need to raise 100,000. But you can get the mortgage at 3%. It makes more sense to give the mortgage to you because, as a team, we're going to make better money because you're saving us 2% on that. And I bring in capital from somewhere else. Yeah, there are different seats that can be taken at the table. It is about whoever is providing the better. It's better for the entire team better for the entire partnership.

So right now, you said that you're buying something new and you have some partners. So what is the current investment that I would need to put down to join your team?

$50,000 because if you bring in lower than that, there are regulations in Ontario and Canada. Ontario is one of the most regulated. There are regulations on how many investors you can bring in before you start tipping over into a REIT status. And then it's different regulations because you're operating more like a fund instead of just a joint venture partnership. And once you have that many people involved and that many investors involved, again, there's a lot more regulation, and rightfully so because it can easily become a Ponzi. A big Ponzi scheme, when you have too many numbers, too many people, not enough, you know, accountability. Then there's fear. We like to keep our group, there's four of us now. Ideally, we'd like to bring eight to 10 more people on with us. And that's how we would finish up this portfolio. That's not saying I would not start another portfolio. And then do the same thing, smaller pockets, smaller pockets, and groups of people. I want everybody to be, you know, one-degree separation involved. I want to be able to call up and say: "Hey, man, this is what we're doing." Next, we're looking at this property. I'm going to send you the performance on the sheets, the property, the all the numbers. We want your feedback on this. And again, you have the option. You may say: "Dario, I trust that you guys are doing, I'm happy with the returns you guys are showing us. I'm confident about your decision. If not, maybe you do want a bigger voice in the conversation, and then you are welcomed as well.

Interesting. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of thinking for myself and whoever reads this. So what tips would you give to a person who has never invested before? I know you gave quite a few. And the biggest one is the use your equity in your home or borrow money in a mortgage if you can, and buy something that can bring some money. Are there any other tips that you can give?

Yeah, it's difficult because it really comes down to a whole mindset shift. Like I was saying to you before, we've been taught to save your money for a rainy day and pay down your mortgages. My tip would be to sit down and logically analyze that thinking because you will quickly realize that that is not necessarily the winning combination. The hardest part is, again, people feel it is risky to step out or borrow money because it's just what we've been taught. It's going to take a bit of bravery and courage to step out there and realize that the people making big money are good at the game. And it's not that I hate people to big money in the millionaires and billionaires. I don't hate them for them. The best I can do is learn from them. And if you don't like what they're doing with the money, then do what you think is right with the money. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't look to make the same money. If you understand what I'm saying. And the tools that they use, the strategies that they use, it's always about leveraging good assets. And like I said, there's good and bad debt, as we all know. And that really is going to be the key. You have to step in full out. You can dip your toe into this and expect, you know, amazing returns. It's hard to do this both, you know, keeping a job and trying to be a real estate investor. If that's where you're you are right now in your real estate, investing life, then it would probably be best to take a more passive role and really look to absorb and learn more if you want to move into an active role. Because there's no halfway about it. You're either in or you're not. So I mean, if I don't wake up every day and think of where I'm going to generate investor capital, the next lead, or something like that, I will quickly fail. It's daunting in that regard. But it's fun. I mean, like I said, it's fun. It's enjoyable because you're controlling the script. Everything's out there. With the internet and connections live with me. I don't even know where you are. And then, we get this chance to have this talk about real estate. Yeah, this is where the world is right now. So if people are opening their eyes to these kinds of opportunities, this kind of technology, it's out there. I hope that it helps comfort them a little bit when they make the decision to step away from either their "nine-to-five" job or really get 100% into real estate investing.

Definitely makes sense. Can you tell me how do you pick your next investment? Is there anything you specifically look at? Other than returns?

Of course, location. There's a bunch of little factors. But I make sure that I don't let one dominate the whole process. Let's say you have a great deal up in Thunder Bay or an okay deal down in Toronto. They're going to be looked at in two different ways. But they can both equally be as attractive. Again, for me, what I'm looking at right now, our focus is on a longer-term investment hold. I'm looking to play through the markets; I'm not going to guess what will happen with it in the next 6, 12, 18 months. So I'd rather have a good stable portfolio that will be able to carry through it. If it can cash flow. Today, I'm locked in with my debt, locked in with my tenants. It doesn't matter what happens for the next five years because my debt stays the same; my rent stays the same. That means it's always going to be cash flowing. It doesn't matter if the markets go high or low. And it works both ways. I can't get scared when it gets low. And I can't get too excited when it gets high. Because I know it's going to constantly move up and down through this. So again, very clearly, I'm focused at five years down the road. Whatever I'm buying it right now has to be able to carry me through five years. So if it's cash flowing - that is well enough for me now. And again, this doesn't mean it has to be through the roof amazing looking returns. Again, 5-10% returns over the next five years will be great. So again, that's how I look at investments more than anything else. It just seems that multi-units will handle a five-year stretch better than a single-family home or a duplex just because of diversity in the portfolio.

Well, yeah, hopefully, the market will continue booming as it was last year. Not sure what's going to happen with the interest rates. Do you think the market is going to flatten out for the next few years, or there is still some powers that will push it higher in terms of pricing?

The government will help flatten it out for a while. It's gonna restrain it. You've got an inflationary push right now. Soon as you start jacking up interest rates on mortgages and the rest of that, it will do a lot of pressure because people won't be able to afford a house. You're not buying a house on a credit card with 24%. People just can't afford to do this. But again, it's one of those games. If they go too hard, and they've priced the majority of people from buying, the government does not want to do this. So the government's playing that line right now. So yes, I think it's going to calm it down. It'll look a little bit more level. But by no means do I ever think that real estate will ever flatten out, especially with the immigration programs are pushing into Canada. Thunder Bay itself is taking on an extra 2000 residents, thanks to the pilot immigration program they have here. So they send a lot of the people, a large Indian culture coming up this way. So I mean, yeah, it's hard to say real estate is one of those things, right? They're not making more land. The population keeps growing, but you know that that's. Housing is always going to be one of those things that will push upwards.

And I like your approach with a long-term view. So if the market is growing, then you realize both rental returns and from increasing prices. But if it's flattening out or even slightly dropping, then you're still enjoying the safety of your rental income. I think it's the best approach.

Exactly! That's interlock yourself. Now, if you're winning now, and it's a five-year deal, you're gonna win for the five years, right? Like I said, if you're me, even if you have a single-family and if you're making $100 a month off it because of the rent you're collecting, that's going to continue. Rents don't come down. Unless you're in some sort of variable mortgage, the rates aren't going to change. So you can confidently say that this is consistently going to stay the same. And can you show me any time when rents and house prices have dropped dramatically? I'd be interested to know because I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, in 2008, when the deal crashed the entire market, it took a year, year-and-a-half before the real estate market bounced back.

Great! I know I took enough of your precious time today. Thank you for the interview and the valuable experiences you shared. I am sure my readers will have a lot to think about.

Yeah, no problem. Feel free to reach out to me if you ever want to work together.

Thank you. I will. Just need to find $50K. Should not be a big problem, just need to straighten finances.

Good luck.

Good luck with your investments as well. Talk soon!

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